tbury
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by tbury on Oct 22, 2008 7:05:57 GMT -5
- And, his "cases being too old" is a theory not a proven fact, yet - he's changing powders and "we" are going to try them again. - Plus, he also has the books you guys have and the "Cartridges of the World"(?) and believes one is perfectly safe using the data provided for the Win 30-30 in the Rem 30 and Win 25-35 for the Rem 25. He had me write this part down, Rem.25 87gr bullet, 4895 30gr or 3031 31gr; 117gr bullet 4895 25gr or 3031 26gr. I then ask the obvious, why less powder for a bigger bullet? Which started a whole new lesson. So, I'm working on the listening and the learning thing. We did find that there is some difference in most of the books regarding case sizes on the same cartridges. As an example, I don't believe we found two different books with the same dimensions on the Rem 30 and Win 30-30! We compared "Cartridges of the World", Speer, Hodgdon's, and Sierra. Which brings us back to why are the 25's not ejecting? Again an obvious question whom is using what book when they are making the brass?? And what book do I use when reloading? And still with all these questions, he is gracious enough to understands that I don't understand. So, his call tonight was to ask me to come over to his shop later this week to start my reloading of MY stuff (probably start with some Rem 25's, since that is the topic of this discussion), while working with his theory on the different powder in his old brass for his rifle, and as we continue the class on "less is more" regarding less powder and bigger bullets. It's getting more "funner" all the time! Im, I have been loading 25 rem since the 60s. So with the warning that experience does not equal wisdom I will made some observations for you. The only case measurements that I pay attention to are the over all cartridge length (COL) and the trim to size length of the empty resized case. Case dimensions in books are not manufacturing standards but probably a reflection on variation in sources of info available to the writer. Reloading dies are designed to size the brass to a size that will fit manufacturing standards. I do not know who keeps the specifications, maybe Remington for their cartridges. Obviously Jamison used the wrong diameter at the extraction groove, or human error in the set up has caused the problems with recent batches of brass. As far as powders go I have used 2400 ( for cast bullets), 3031 and Varget for jacketed bullets. I stopped using Varget because the brass after firing was hot enough to burn my skin (note to self wear long sleeves). 3031 seems to be a pretty good powder for this case capacity. For case life, I usually anneal every 3rd or 4th reload; this keeps the brass from getting brittle. The only failures I have experienced is a split or holed necks. Some of my brass is over 40 yrs old and has been reloaded many times. I always inspect brass before resizing and cull any with split necks or light rings near the base. I do not load hot or max loads for a couple of reasons. One, 25 brass is expensive and I do not want to over work it. Two, most of the guns I am shooting it in are near 100 yrs old and parts are scarce. As for the why of less powder for heavy bullets, the bigger the bullet the more pressure it takes to drive it down the barrel. Therefore, an 87gr bullet requires more powder to reach the same pressure point than a 117 gr bullet. For this reason you can drive lighter bullets to higher velocities while keeping inside of the pressure limits recommended for the cartridge. Good Luck in your adventures in reloading.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 22, 2008 11:13:03 GMT -5
Mitch , you are getting started in a very interesting hobby, one that will teach you as long as you do it. There is always more to learn if you want to. No sense in jumping on anyone who is learning. Good to see you taking the steps to learning it proper from your friend. You sound to be in good hands.
Interesting how the load he recommended is the exact load I am using too! We must be close to having it right, just a small detail somewhere has been missed. As long as this thing doesn't foul up like a Ruger 10-22 I will be a very happy boy.
I might get to tear her down tonight if time permits. Rumors of my Husqvarna needing to topple a big black bear have come to my attention this morning. As if I didn't have enough irons in the fire already. Hope I can fit all this in. I will have four other tags to either fill myself or help others fill (scout/guide) so it is going to be one exciting hunting season and lots of folks will eat well this winter.
Thanks for diggin up so much info Mitch, appreciate the help, and you too Dave! Cheers!
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 22, 2008 21:22:28 GMT -5
I won't be stretching any springs that are celebrating their hundredth birthday this year. But I am going down there right now to design me a wrench. I have a lathe and a bunch of washers at my disposal. I will turn one .0005 less than the width of the nut slots and then cut it in half flat wise, this giving me the clearance in the middle with the half moon there. Add a handle to keep even balanced pressure and just like that I have an ugly wrench that will serve it's purpose for as much as I'm going to need it.
I will apply a coat of Lathe way oil or even case lube to the guts. Nothing will get past that stuff before the next session comes.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 23, 2008 9:10:24 GMT -5
Well I was up till midnight last night playing tear down. Everything was pretty clean. Thank goodness tbury sent me the tear down procedure. I've never been in a high power semi before. The barrel when separate slides both ways slick as snot. I cleaned the bore and chamber. It was very copper fouled. The receiver breech bolt glides back and forth nicely except for the last 3/4" or so in the forward stroke. IF allowed to go full speed from the spring pressure it closes 99% or the time.
After I rinsed out the receiver with WD40 to get all the grime out the cam action of the bolt was much improved but the movement of the breechbolt itself does not seem quite as smooth as it did when I had that filthy moly dry lube in there. When the barrel and receiver are matted together they don't want to mesh as nicely as before but having all the lube cleaned out of it may be the culprit here.
Do you guys lube the breech bolt and if so what do you use?
I am going o try it this weekend and sure hope this has fixed it. To be honest I don't feel it has but it is hard to say. Just feels more sticky now than ever.
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tbury
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by tbury on Oct 23, 2008 9:59:19 GMT -5
I have been spraying Ezoxx down the Barrel Jacket and letting it drain into a paper towel. A drop of gun oil on the shaft part of the bolt lugs where it rotates in the bolt (make sure the lugs are verticle when you put the barrel back in the receiver. A little oil on a Q-tip to the parts of the receiver that the bolt slide on and that should be enough. When you had the springs out were there any markings on them? I think I remember seeing the flat coiled spring with a marking in Henwoods book. Did you get into the recoil mechanism in the butt stock?
Dave
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 23, 2008 11:15:06 GMT -5
Did not take the barrel apart if those are the springs you mean. I did take the recoil spring for the breech bolt out. The rear plug was wood. Is that OEM? Just laying on my bench the total length of the spring and follower and plug was 12 7/8" total length. When I was getting a feel for the barrel springs I looked inside at the receiver end and there is a coule very small flecks of rust but they are only 1/8" round. The actual barrel is all in the white still and very clean with a bright finish aside from the two or three marks mentioned. This gun could not have been used much.
I did not want to leave it apart overnight with my poor memory so it is back together now. I will lube the parts you mention Dave and that should minimize dust collection.
I could not figure out how to remove the breech bolt from the receiver. Nor did I find a flat coil spring in there. There is a flat spring for the trigger, barrel lock and the bolt stop mechanism has two, one fine one up behind the barrel lock bar and the heavy Vee shaped one that locks the bolt open on retract. Did not see any stamps but the lighting in my dungeon is not that great.
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tbury
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by tbury on Oct 23, 2008 12:32:46 GMT -5
The flat spring is the one in the jacket around the barrel. If I am remembering correctly from "the Book". The large coil spring in the barrel jacket is really rectangular in cross section. I will check tonight at home. I believe some were marked with the caliber. Of course the 25, 30, and 32 rem used the same spring but 35 rem and 300 Sav had a different (stronger) spring. If I am wrong someone correct my statements as I am getting way beyond my experience.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 23, 2008 21:22:13 GMT -5
Caught wind of a big black bear so my BIL raced down and we made for the hills. I took the 8 along to test and as suspected it is still the same. I fired two of my old Dominion cases and two of my RP brand once fired both of them. All four times they fired no problem but the bolt only comes back 3/4" by itself, the barrel is not coming back. The breech in a split second slams back shut. The primers look kind of strange. It looks like the pin struck lightly and then the rearward action sort of ironed it out but still left the pin strike mark. Hard to explain but not your typical looking fired primer. I am suspecting the load is too high for lack of better things. The first time I tried this gun was using H380. I might just back off the 3031 load AND also do up some H380 like I used before. They were cycling for sure as I had to keep track of the brass flying all over.
I sure hope it is nothing serious wrong here. After what I paid for the thing it should shoot game all by itself. In my opinion of course! LOL One good thing I noticed about after the tear down is the trigger is much better now. That is a big bonus.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 23, 2008 23:36:40 GMT -5
Curiousity killed the cat. I tore apart two of my collector cartridges tonight.
First one from UMC, Circa 1910-12 maybe earlier. 117gr bullet. COL 2.505" Powder is flat discs with a hole in the middle. 21gr of it. Looks more like a shotshell or pistol powder to me.
Second Remington Red/Green box from the late 40's. 117gr bullet, COL 2.513 Powder charge is 28.1gr *Looks* very similar to 3031 with fine long grain cylindrical powder filling the case almost to the base of the taper.
I noticed my fired cases have really expanded in front of the web. I would imagine this is because the barrel and bolt dont seem to be locking up.
My COL I had been using with the Hornady 117gr was 2.540". After finding the factory rounds shorter, I seated mine to the short edge of the cannelure and got 2.518". Very close to the 1940's load and will try that. I am hoping to fire one of the 1940's loads over my chronygraph this weekend. Don't even ask me to do the same with the 1910 stuff. Ain't gonna happen! Lol
One day this weekend I will post this data in the factory ammo section with pictures to help sooth 81Police's need for pics. For now, the hunt is on!
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Post by 81police on Oct 24, 2008 7:34:53 GMT -5
The rear plug was wood. Is that OEM? supersportster, the action spring plug should be wood this is correct. The action spring follower should be steel.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 24, 2008 8:42:55 GMT -5
Cheers 81Police, It almost looked like a home made jobby at first but it is identical to yours.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 26, 2008 12:29:32 GMT -5
Shot the rifle yesterday. 25gr of 3031 chronyed 2170. The 1940's factory load was 2130 so I should be right on the money. However none of my test loads including the H380 that cycled the action before worked. They all failed to eject. The barrel does not come back with the breech bolt under recoil, and the breech bolt only comes back maybe 1" max then slams back shut. To cycle and extract the spent case is very tight, but the primers now look normal.
Once the breech bolt and the barrel dissengage from eachother the bolt pulls back freely. I suspect the parts that engage eachother are the problem but have no idea where to start.
I did nail a raven at 80yds using the Marbles peep so she is a shooter. Just a frustrating one.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 26, 2008 20:34:26 GMT -5
Might have found the culprit! Took the barrel off for the umpteenth time, stuff like this drives me crazy. Anyway, the little tab of the magazine indicator sprin was NOT in its little milled groove below the runway for the bolt assembly to slide on. If I didn't live in town I'd go out in the back yard and shoot it right now. Both barrel and bolt are back to sliding properly. It looks like that tab had been on top there for a real long time, maybe improperly assembled by the previous owner. Who knows. The parts don't look wore (thank goodness) so maybe it will now be functioning. I will let you know. If nothing else this thread will help other new folk diagnose the problem if they come across it. I will post pics at a later time.
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kirk
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by kirk on Oct 27, 2008 8:36:37 GMT -5
I made this mistake on my first reassembly, but figured it out prior to shooting it as the bolt would not operate smoothly. I'll cross my fingers for you that you have fixed the problem!
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Post by supersporter40 on Dec 2, 2008 22:15:54 GMT -5
Well boys and girls hunting season is over. I did not get to knock over a buck with the 8 as hoped due to lets just say chronic bad luck.
I will say though the gun even with the H380 loaded to match the 1940's circa factory ammo will not eject the spent case. For that matter the factory ammo did not eject either. The bolt comes back 3/4" and then just goes forward to home again. Everything slides real nice so I suspect A either the load still needs work, perhaps another powder (slower???) or there is a mechanical problem that is beyond my capabilities. All the gunsmith sort of folk I mention this gun to just sigh and then cuss under their breath so I will guess this may not be a new problem encountered with a vintage 8.
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