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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 19, 2008 12:10:43 GMT -5
The gun is clean but I have no idea if the sleeve should be lubed or something. Using Hornady 117gr RN's, CCI200 primer and 26gr of IMR 3031. This is the top load from my Hornady manual but I am tempted to think it does not create enough pressure to cycle the action. This isn't totally a bad thing as I don't have to hunt for brass on the ground after. However, if there is something wrong I don't want to damage the gun either. I am going to lay the smack down to an unsuspecting Whitetail come the 1st of November and it would be nice to have it cycling properly for that adventure in the case a second shot is needed quickly in the traditional Model 8 way. My first two inside a 1/2" at 30yds using a very poor rest so this could well be a great load if it will behave in the rifle. I adjusted the sights and after that my hands were so numb pulling the trigger was a problem yesterday. Groups started opening fast after that but I think it is all me and not the gun. Your help is greatly appreciated! Noel
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Post by tnrifleman on Oct 19, 2008 15:55:14 GMT -5
Noel,
Beats me... Your load is a top end load as you noted, so I doubt it is a pressure related issue. Hornady also notes that their loads are suitable for use in the Model 8 and other rifles that use the 25 Remington cartridge. Has the rifle functioned well with other loads?
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tbury
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Posts: 126
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Post by tbury on Oct 19, 2008 17:18:19 GMT -5
Is it a failure to feed or failure to eject? I am guessing that your round does not eject completely after firing. Some of my initial loads would not eject as I increased powder I found loads that did cycle completely. Does your bolt go completely forward on loading the first round from the magazine. When you pull the bolt back to release it. If not some light lubrication on the moving parts of the bolt might help.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 19, 2008 19:09:59 GMT -5
I have taken more pictures of the gun than actually shot it. The onlyother load I have tried was with H380 using the 117gr and 85gr NBT. Those loads were starting level and did not eject.
Rounds chamber fully, the bolt closes slick as can be. They all have fired fine but they just don't eject. I will take it down and give it a lube job with dry graphite to avoid it collecting more dust. Hope I get a chance to shoot it next weekend, Deer season approaches quickly.
tbury, at what charge using 3031 did you find they would eject reliably?
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tbury
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by tbury on Oct 19, 2008 19:27:13 GMT -5
I do not have that listed for 3031; but Cartridges of the world lists 25.5gr of 3031 giving 2300fps for the 117 gr SP bullet (Hornady data). Factory load for 117 gr SP bullet was listed at 2125fps. Your 26 gr should have plenty of power to cycle the model 8.
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kirk
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by kirk on Oct 19, 2008 22:54:04 GMT -5
On two of my model 8's I had failures to return to battery. All it took to resolve my situation was a complete disassembly, a thorough cleaning and lubrication. After that I have had no failures with a couple different ammo types.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 20, 2008 11:04:23 GMT -5
Hey Kirk. I took it apart last night. As far as I dare right now anyway. It isn't dirty at all. I wiped it out anyway and used dry moly lube in it. It seems a bit better but not really that much different.
I wonder if it doesn't yearn for a slower powder......
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Post by imfuncity on Oct 20, 2008 13:28:46 GMT -5
Now keep in mind that this is from an almost reloader and I'm not claiming to be much "helb" - I've loaded maybe 30 cartridges under careful supervision. But it was, as you guys predicted, great fun and addictive - I've about got all I need to do this reloading thing. I'm specifically interested in doing it for my 788 - 222, plus the Rem .25 and Win. 25-35, thus your problem concerns me. While learning the basics of reloading, then going out to shoot 'em, my instructor/teacher/reloader/gunsmith and custom rifle builder for the last 60 years became very disturbed when his 257 Roberts bolt action was not ejecting my reloads (that he had carefully watched me load). He was loaning the rifle to a friend to go antelope hunting the next week and he was not a happy camper. I, of course, was concerned I'd done something wrong - our friend ended up taking a different rifle. After he complete took his custom 257 Roberts apart, measuring and checking things I didn't even know were in rifles, in preparation for rebuilding it, he could NOT find anything wrong with the rifle. Finally, he bought some new factory ammo and new brass that he loaded - NO MORE PROBLEMS. Thus he came to the conclusion that the brass he was using (I had loaded) was too old - been reloaded too many times. Therefore, when the cartridge expanded during firing it did not contract enough afterward, making ejecting very difficult to say the least, we almost had to go to my common solution for everything "get a bigger hammer". Obviously, I have no clue if this is your problem. All I know is that my 25's likes Reed's Ammo (but I don't know if he is making Rem .25 again after the problem with the Jamison brass being too thick). I just got some Rem 30 brass for trying my first Rem .25 loads. Hope this helps and/or gives you some ideas to try.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 20, 2008 16:06:10 GMT -5
Hey Mitch. The brass I have is resized 30 Rem, only on the second firing this time. I also have some new old stock Dominion brass that may have been shot once more.
I know what you are saying though, I bought a 7 Mag for my Father in law and the chamber is on the tight side. You will not get fired brass to fit that little bugger unless you had a small base die, even then don't hold your breath. New brass is okay but that is it. May as well shoot factory ammo. Lucky for me he is too lazy to go hunting so the 80 rounds I did up for him will likely get shot by his Grandkids some day.
Thanks for mentioning that.
After hearing of the grief folks had with the J stuff I am going to steer very clear of it. There are enough adventures to be had with workable components let alone running the chance of getting a bag full of crap. lol
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tbury
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Post by tbury on Oct 20, 2008 17:30:09 GMT -5
Hey Noel, run some real tight patches with powder solvent in the chamber on your 8. Maybe you have enough crude, lube, or stuff built up to make the chamber hold on to the case a little too much. Normal cleaning brushes to not really work on the chamber. For this reason Military guns have a chamber specific brush to clean it in addition to the bore. Just another wild guess.
Dave
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 20, 2008 21:12:55 GMT -5
Will give it a scrub right now. Thanks Dave. I will give it another try this weekend before a big tear down is done er should I say started... I think I only have CR10 for bore cleaning. Only powder solvent is my 60 year old Marbles tin still 3/4 full but I will resist using that for now.
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kirk
Junior Member
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Post by kirk on Oct 21, 2008 0:37:41 GMT -5
I used an exploded view and a parts list to make sure I could safely do a 100% tear down right down to the last spring and pin and then complete a reassembly without a hitch. I took each individual part, doused it in gun oil, rubbed it in and dried it off and then reassembled it with excellent results, as reported before. Obviously, this may not be your particular problem as the symptoms are different, but I would suggest it as something on the must do list for any model 8/81 that you are unsure of its recent past. From your description I am still unsure if your cases are failing to extract properly or simply failing to eject after extraction causing a jam or stovepipe. Some of the other guy's suggestions seem to be addressing an extraction problem which may be interfering with the actions ability to cycle, therefore not actuating the ejector. Another possibility could be an incorrect action spring as I am told they are caliber specific, although your knowledge about the rifles history may put that one in doubt. I have found all of mine seem to work perfectly which leads me to the conclusion that with some experimentation with both rifle and ammo, you will get it working like champ in short order.
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tbury
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by tbury on Oct 21, 2008 6:51:15 GMT -5
Imfuncity's suggestions brought up another thought about this problem. 3031 works in my 8 but I worked up from starting load to higher loads. Unlike Garands these guns are recoil operated It may be that going for the top load may ("This is the top load from my Hornady manual ") be too hot for the action. I do not know if this is possible but if the cleaning suggestions do not work. Try some half grain lower loads, also you might have a buddy watch the action as you shoot to see if it looks like the bolt is coming all or part way back.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 21, 2008 8:57:54 GMT -5
Mitch, my load data is as you say, but from a Hornady manual. It says it covers both the 25-35Win and 25 Remington. Our Remmy has more case capacity so the loads should be safe.
Kirk, I think that is wise, to fully tear it down for a good cleaning. Especially since it will be earning its keep. Not much sense it continued use if it is going to hurt components internally. To confirm, it feeds the round from the mag to battery without fail. It fires every time, but it just won't eject the spent casing.
Dave, that is a good idea too, I kept thinking maybe the loads were too low to cycle the action properly but maybe I have gotten up to the other end of the spectrum where the bolt and barrel lock up too tight with the high power load. However I was having the same problem with the 87gr Nosler BT with a very mild load. Maybe that one was too low again. I'll try backing it down. Too bad I loaded up 50 rounds, might have to tear them all apart now. oh well!
I am going to dig out my box of 1940's RP cartridges and fire one through my chronygraph to get an idea of what they used. I will pull the bullet and weigh the powder etc before and maybe from there we can come up with what they may have used in the factory ammo.
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Post by supersporter40 on Oct 21, 2008 20:37:26 GMT -5
When I had the barrel off the other night I held it up to light. The bore and chamber are bright and sparkly, no freckles of rust or heavy build up. It is very possible it is copper/lead or powder fouled as I have not scrubbed it out but it is for sure not rusted. Thank goodness!
I just realized the Elk opener is this weekend at home. I might have to sneak out in mid day to test this little brute. Deep freeze is empty so it would be bad to neglect that tag getting filled.
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