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Post by nedchristiansen on Nov 1, 2021 12:00:45 GMT -5
This is something I recently posted elsewhere, a forum where I would not expect the readers to be up on Winchester WSL's like you guys are here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Deer season is coming up, time to get the Winchester Model 1907 out again (ref post of Nov. 19th 2020). Ammo? You make it out of something else. Original ammo can be found for maybe $200 / box, and some custom loaders offer it, but it is not really that big a deal to make it. Take .357 Maximum brass, turn the rim down, cut an extractor groove, shorten the case. Add some 4227 and a Hawk JSP at 1700-plus and you have a somewhat OK deer round. The original loading was a 180 JSP very similar to these but the consensus is that they did not expand well— the Hawks do. This gun and cartridge was a favorite of lawmen and outlaws in the 20’s and 30’s. Somewhere in the vast expanse of the internet, within the last year, I ran across a site where people were discussing “go back in time and select better weapons for our troops, WWI and WWII” or something like that. These ‘07’s did see some use in WWI by the French as air-to-air rifles, but…. I think they’d have been great in the trenches too. Bigger magazines, say 20 rounds….. double-stack had already been done. Cut barrel to 14”—I don’t think this cartridge would miss the 20” barrel much. The 07’s predecessor was the ’05, in .35 SL, basically the same cartridge but shorter. And weak enough to have earned the name “the must useless rifle cartridge ever offered”. The ’05 was also offered in .32 SL….. also pretty weak and yet it is said to have been the basis for the .30 M1 Carbine round. One thing to keep in mind through is that all the WSL’s to include the mighty .401, were straight blowback—no locked breech, just a massive bolt. The .401 WSL generates the muzzle energy of a .30-30, with an unlocked bolt. For the “use it in WWI” exercise I might say switch it to a .30 caliber. Neck down the .351 WSL case, make it rimless (it is semi-rimmed)….. I’m picturing something like the .300 Whisper. Now that the Whisper is SAAMI-codified as the .300 AAC Blackout, we know it is meant to run at the same max pressure as .223: 55,000 PSI max. Not sure we can make that compatible with straight blowback and since the .351 WSL predates SAAMI (and the Model T Ford!), I can only guess what pressures it might run at, I’m thinking 36-38,000. The late-WWII 7.92X33 for the Sturmgewehr (STG44 / MP44) had a 123 grain Spitzer at 2250fps, at 49,300 PSI. Well, within that 38K PSI parameter I’m thinking one of these 07’s might run .300 Whisper with, say, the original .30-06 bullet of 150 grains at close to 1900-ish FPS— ballistically speaking, pretty superior to the .30 M1 Carbine (40,000 PSI max) that would not come along for another 25 years. 14” barrel? I’d talk to Mr. Maxim about what he could do for us without lengthening it more than another 4”. Left to right, .357 Maximum case, one of last year’s empties made from same, one in the chuck getting the business, a 180 Hawk above it, and on the right a handload with a cast 180 round nose. That is not rust on the chuck, it is walnut dust!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------
So.... at the risk of getting lynched on my second post here, be it known that for a "rewrite history" project, I am in the market for a very poor-condition Winchester Model 1907. Shot-out, bent barrel, missing barrel no issue as it will be replaced. I don't think it would be necessary to do anything permanent to it, I would do my best to avoid permanent mods that would prevent it from later being restored to a proper 1907. So, I am specifically looking for something where I pretty much can't reduce any collector value.
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Post by hcompton79 on Nov 1, 2021 15:36:30 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I can't help you in your search for a 1907 for your project. However, I do want to add two pieces of information to what you have written. Firstly, while .357 maximum is a perfectly suitable parent case, few are aware of .360 Dan Wesson, a case with similar dimensions, but falling between the .357 Magnum and .357 Maximum in case length. It is also a suitable case for conversion to .351 WSL, and can normally be had for less than the cost of .357 Maximum. Also, Philip B. Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading (C. 1937) has a list of charges that include operating pressures. Being this is an old manual, these loads should not be used without verification for those powders still in production, but it would give an idea of the maximum operating pressures for this round. Being from 1937, these are certainly CUP and not modern transducer PSI.
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Post by nedchristiansen on Nov 1, 2021 16:12:09 GMT -5
Great stuff, thanks very much. Love the tip on .360 DW, and you're absolutely right, just found it for $82/250 vs/ $115/250. Next time I need some it will be that.
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Post by 351winchester on Nov 7, 2021 15:42:08 GMT -5
I hunted with some folks that used the .351 with great success. This was back in the late 60's and early 70's. His wife used to cuss the .351 as she said "that dammed .351 ruined too much meat". He used factory Remington ammo and never lost a deer. Fast forward to the early 2000's and this guy who goes the name of the brassfetcher was into testing various loads into ballistic gel. If you go to youtube you will see the only video that he ever set to music using my 07 with factory Remington ammo. I'm not sure who was impressed the most him or me.
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Post by battis on Nov 8, 2021 7:07:54 GMT -5
I use .357 Mag brass, rim sized to .408” (no extractor groove). I use a .38/.357 sizing die, then run the case into a 9mm crimp die for the length of bullet only (cast bullet - .352"). This gives good case neck tension. IMR4227 (17 grs). This powder is compressible. Then an expander die slightly, and seat with .38/.357 seating die. Crimp with .38/.357 seating die. Chronograph: velocity 1400 – 1600 fps. A “Vintage round” that I fired measured 1879 fps. I've used that loading method in two rifles and never had a problem.
I read that “the must useless rifle cartridge ever offered” referred to the .32WSL, not the .35.
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Post by 351winchester on Nov 8, 2021 8:19:28 GMT -5
Factory ammo was loaded to it's full potential in the .351 for sure as back then competition between Remington and Winchester was fierce. A lot of folks bad mouth the .351, but in reality it is no slouch.
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Post by battis on Nov 8, 2021 8:47:40 GMT -5
I don't hunt - nothing against it - but I'm thinking that the .351 would be my choice here in the Northeast woods; compact, plenty of power, not sure about the carrying weight. I read that the .32WSL was too big for small game, too small for big game, which is probably why my .32 is in great condition (not used much) and the two .351s looked like they got used. I bought some loaded .351 rounds online (not the vintage rounds) a few years ago and for the heck of it I pulled the bullets to measure the (unknown) powder - it varied from 17 grs to close to 21 grs, which is why I now load my own. I also found that the longer .357 MAX brass took a beating around the case mouths when ejecting, while the shorter .357 MAG brass does not.
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Post by nedchristiansen on Nov 12, 2021 11:58:58 GMT -5
Some handloads. I loaded both .351 and .401 last year but this year I'm doing so in slightly larger numbers and with better documentation to include the chrono. It's convenient that the same powder works well for both, I'm using 4227. I'm not a great big hunter either-- done it all my life in one form or another but it never really became a big driving factor. That said I look forward to maybe seeing the effectiveness of both calibers with these Hawk bullets on deer. "Carrying weight"? Heavy, without doubt! Especially the .401; I've had the bolt out of the .351 and it's heavy.... I worry that when I get the bolt out of the .401 that I won't be able to lift it ;-). I'm thinking it's not for nothing that Winchester called the .401 "The Hammer of Thor" -- only Thor can lift Mjǫllnir. The aftermarket mags for the .351 in my opinion are to be avoided and I suspected that going in, especially with the ten-rounder.... but I hadda have it just to see the '07 with it in there! I bet they sell a lot that way. I'm playing around with what I hope will be a simple remedy. Both the 5 and 10-rounders have been nothing but trouble, with admittedly not many rounds fired (since we can't buy .351 by the case). The factory mag with its astoundingly strong spring has worked 100%.
L-R, 180 LRN, loaded into a case made from .223 which I don't consider a viable option as it could be a safety hazard; factory round; two Hawks. .401's-- 200 FMJ and 200 Hawk. The extractor groove in factory .351's has quite an oblique angle, I don't see any need for that and the more "regular" looking grooves work well with no apparent interference with the extractor.
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Post by nedchristiansen on Nov 17, 2021 12:20:09 GMT -5
The above-described .351 ammo is working well in this 1908-made gun .... after a few little hitches with bullet profile. In the .401, even better. Both will hold a quarter sheet of paper at 100 yards, good enough for deer behind the house. Both rounds using the Hawk bullet do the deal in wet newspaper, I might just graduate to ballistic gel next summer after we wrap a gel shoot in Patrol Rifle class. The .401 in particular is a powerhouse.... think 10mm auto with a heavy bullet (200 grains) and 900 more FPS. Both are straight blowback of course which leads to a mega-flinging of the brass.
The hitch with the 180 Hawk is that the shank of the bullet is longer than factory bullets, leading to the bullet engaging the rifling upon chambering with about 3/32 of interference. So either the gun won't go into battery, or if it does it might push the bullet back into the case, and/or either way extracting that live round will be difficult and may lead to leaving the bullet stick in the chamber throat and a mess of powder in the action. I tried loading them shorter by the proper amount and this allowed the rounds to shuck back and forth in the mag enough that rounds became rim-locked.
I wound up taking each and every round, indicating it to zero runout, and turning the bullet down .004 per side to about 1/8" from the case mouth, making the bullet something of a bore-rider. Lots of work, great results. Accuracy effect, well, I'm not gonna be shooting Camp Perry with this gun and anyway there was no effect I could notice.
In the .401 the Hawk bullet gave no such troubles, being of a profile that is not simply a scaled-up .351. I'm getting a full 1780 FPS with the .351 Hawk 180 and 1980 FPS with the .401 (.406 diameter) 200 Hawk.
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Post by hcompton79 on Nov 18, 2021 21:59:12 GMT -5
I have one of the repro 10 round magazines. It initially gave me feed issues. I found that the follower was sticking in use. Disassembly and comparison with an original 5 round magazine revealed the rear of the follower on the original magazine was slightly rounded in order to clear the magazine catch in the rifle, which the repro follower was not. A few minutes of file work with the repro follower allowed me to round over the same edge so that the follower cleared the magazine catch when inserted in the rifle. This resolved all of the issues with this magazine in my rifle and it has been 100% for me since then.
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Post by nedchristiansen on Nov 19, 2021 12:18:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip, I will certain check that. With mine I felt it was a combo of not enough mag spring and a lower feeding angle. The original mag springs on these guns (to include the '05 in .35WSL)are tremendously strong. I always figured this was necessary due to the very fast cycling-- a strong spring to get the next round up fast enough. The original mags are works of industrial art. I have taken both followers out and smoothed them out a bit with a file, they needed that-- I'll do it again and look for evidence of interference from the mag catch. I did find a way to seriously boost the spring tension, which did not seem to do the deal and if it did I think would lead to shorter mag life but... I'll keep trying :-)
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Post by blackbahart on Nov 30, 2021 23:41:44 GMT -5
I have a 1907 I made a barrel for in 300 blackout .I do have a few teething issues with it and think I have them worked out .But every once in a while it will fail to cycle ,but it only does it at random .Have to load the cartridges to fit the mag . Now the 338-223 with a 25" barrel on a 1907 runs like a champ
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Post by nedchristiansen on Dec 5, 2021 13:22:38 GMT -5
Amazing stuff you are doing sir.... big tip o' the hat.
Also it kinda takes the pressure off for me to do what you have already done.... :-)
Having to load them stubby, what's the heaviest bullet you can get in there? For my exercise I guess it doesn't matter so much but more would be better, up to maybe 150 grains. But them being a Spitzer should also be important I think. On the one had you should be able to go heavier with a longer, roundy bullet like the old Hornady Interlock.... but to get Spitzer you'd lose the weight.
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Post by partsman on Feb 22, 2022 19:38:59 GMT -5
I use original brass, jamison brass, captech brass and 360 Dan Wesson for my 351 WSL and all work fine with IMR4227 powder and 180 grain cast and jacketed bullets.
for my 401 WSL I used cases formed from 7.62x39 russian plus ones i made from that case and also used cases i made from 6.5 grendell basic brass and 414 super mag, all worked well using IMR4227 powder, the 414 seemed the easier to make, although the basic brass was not bad, but i also purchased correctly headstamped cases and it is nice to not have to play around all the time making cases. Recently had Vollmer precision make 260 grain bullets, but now have to find a load for them. Fun rifles to shoot.
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Post by nedchristiansen on Jun 25, 2022 21:54:05 GMT -5
My latest thing with this .351 is taking the Hornady 170 grain InterLocks made for .350 Legend and push them through a die I made to get them down to .352. The work well and I have to think are better in every way than the original soft point. I do wish I could have stayed with 180 "just because". I would think they might shoot a little flatter but have not really put it to the test. Grouping at 100 yards was good..... not awesome, not noticeably better than the 180 gas checked cast bullet or the Hawk 180..... bit still good.
This coming week I will chrono some and maybe put some into ballisti gel. One thing for sure in gel, I bought some vintage factory .351's and going to put them through the same FBI protocol gel testing we do semi annually with 5.56. What I regret is not having a sample of early '30's auto glass to shoot some through. But I will do at least a few shots, bare gel, heavy clothing, and auto glass. Glass is the tough one.
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