Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 12:16:51 GMT -5
Did you know that John M. Browning is at least partly responsible for Winchester's series of Self-Loading rifles? Along with his autoloading shotgun, JMB also offered the autoloading rifle (aka Model 8) to Winchester. When an agreement on royalties could not be reached (Winchester bought designs outright, and refused to pay royalties), not only did Winchester loose the shotgun, but the rifle as well. This was in 1902, and JMB was loose among the world's manufacturers with a workable autoloading shotgun and rifle. Winchester immediately set on a crash-course to produce a workable self-loading rifle.
When JMB went to Remington in 1904, they were only too glad to see him, and plans were immediately set in motion to produce the shotgun first, and follow it up with the rifle. This caused an even greater stir at Winchester, and their efforts were redoubled to produce a rifle of their own, before Browning's design could reach the public. The result was the Model 1905, beating Remington to market by one year.
Had Winchester agreed to JMB's demand for royalties it is quite possible what is now known as the Remington Model 8 and 81 might instead have carried a Winchester model designation, and Thomas C. Johnson's self-loading rifles (Models 1905, 1907, and 1910) may never have seen production.
I own one of each: a Remington Model 8 in .35 Remington; and a Winchester Model 07 in .351 W.S.L.; I consider both to be fine rifles, well-designed, and simple in operation. They are just different routes to a similar destination.
And I thank JMB for both! OK, OK! T. C. Johnson gets the greater credit for the 07. But still...
Jim
|
|
|
Post by wazza2222 on Jan 4, 2009 15:46:55 GMT -5
I like your thinking 30Gov, but where does the Model 03 fit into your theory?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 17:21:58 GMT -5
Work on T. C. Johnson's rifle, produced by Winchester as the Model 1903, was begun in mid-1900 (yes, there were previous designs for semiautomatic rifles, but they were generally of somewhat larger caliber), and was patented August 27, 1901 (No. 681481). It was not until June 24, 1913, that JMB received the first two of six patents for a .22 caliber autoloading rifle which would become the Remington Model 24 & 241 and FN .22 Caliber Automatic Rifle.
JMB's .22 autoloader was not produced (by FN in Belgium) until 1914. The Remington version was not introduced until 1922. Even Remington's Model 16, their first .22 autoloader (designed by C. H. Barnes), was not introduced until 1915.
Besides the virtues of accuracy, simplicity, and reliability, the Winchester Model 1903 also had the distinct advantage of being the only .22 caliber automatic rifle available. I believe that, taken all together, this would have ensured its manufacture. Once again, it was Winchester taking the step ahead of the competition.
Of course, the Model 1905 followed, as it might have anyway, but with the added urgency of it being known that Remington intended to bring out JMB's autoloading center-fire by 1906. Note that Winchester soon followed with the Model 1907, a bit more powerfully chambered, and the 1910, which took Johnson's balanced-blowback design to its limit.
So, to make a long answer short, I believe the Model 1903 would have been produced anyway. But don't forget, Johnson was Winchester's 'in-house' designer, and had done work on production modifications to some of JMB's previous designs. I'm certain they met more than once. Who can say what influence that may have had on the 1903?
Jim
|
|
rmh
Junior Member
Posts: 95
|
Post by rmh on Jan 4, 2009 19:43:53 GMT -5
The best read for the development of the commercial self-loading rifle by Winchester is in Herbert G. Houze's: "Winchester Repeating Arms: Its History & Development from 1865 to 1981"
In his book, Houze tells the story of the competing in-house self-loading rifle designs of W. Mason/T.G. Bennett and T.C. Johnson. Check out the Mason-Bennett rifle in US Patent Nos. 525151, 685216, 695784. Interestingly, T.C. Johnson had 124 patents assigned to Winchester.
I've done a fair bit of trawling the US Patent Office records as well, trying to locate all the patents applied towards the Winchester Models 1905, 1907, and 1910. These are dates and the numbers I have uncovered.
Aug. 27, 1901 - #681481 Dec. 10, 1901- (unknown) Feb. 25, 1902 - #694157 Feb. 17, 1903 - #720698 Dec. 22, 1903 - (unknown) Aug. 21, 1906 - #829215 Oct. 30, 1906 - (unknown) July 5, 1910 - #963444 Let me know if you have any more patent-researching projects underway, I have an excel spreadsheet of about 1000 firearm patents by a variety of inventors, companies, etc., but not exactly cross-referenced to firearm models.
|
|
|
Post by tnrifleman on Jan 6, 2009 10:16:46 GMT -5
Old JBM was quite a business man as well as a firearms design genius.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2009 21:27:14 GMT -5
It's nowhere near complete, but here's what I've got so far on the Winchester Self-Loading Rifles (and the Shotgun):
Inventor's Name Model - Patent Date - Patent Number
Thomas G. Bennett & William Mason: 1903 - December 22, 1903 - 747,675
Thomas C. Johnson: 1903 - August 27, 1901 – 681,481 1903 - February 25, 1902 – 694,157 1903 - February 3, 1903 – 719,807 1903 - February 17, 1903 – 720,698 1911 - April 26, 1904 – 758,318 1911 - August 30, 1904 - 769,089 1911 - August 30, 1904 – 768,665 1911 - March 27, 1906 - 816,015 1907 - August 21, 1906 – 829,215 1907 - October 30, 1906 - 834,578 (edited) 1911 - November 13, 1906 – 835,825 1911 - January 4, 1910 – 945,328 1911 - January 11, 1910 – 946,134 1905 - July 5, 1910 – 963,444
Thomas C. Johnson & Frank F. Burton: 1911- December 29, 1903 – 748,395
Frank F. Burton: 1911 - November 23, 1909 – 941,006
Franklin F. Knous: 1911 - July 18, 1911 – 998,347
Thomas G. Bennett was president of Winchester. William Mason, Thomas C. Johnson, and Frank F. Burton were 'in-house' designers/engineers at Winchester. Sorry, but I don't have any information on Franklin F. Knous.
Not Found: 1905 - December 10, 1901 - unknown 1911 - November 4, 1902 - unknown 1911 - May 7, 1919 - unknown 1911 - June 4, 1919 - unknown
These last four I've not been able to locate. From past experience, though, I've found that patent dates marked on firearms aren't always accurate. Sometimes they even had nothing to do with the firearm in question. But I'll keep looking.
Jim
|
|
rmh
Junior Member
Posts: 95
|
Post by rmh on Jan 6, 2009 23:50:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the detailed reply! I don't have records for your missing patent numbers either. Also, you might want to double check "1907 - October 30, 1906 – 864,578" for typos, the patent number you listed for that dates to 1907 and is for a musical percussion instrument.
Knous once worked for Colt in the 1880's, judging from some patents assigned to the company (316,899; 324,330; 332,203; 358,279; 372,153) that are apparently for the Colt Lightning rifle. The first Winchester patent by Knous I've found is (964,167 - July 12, 1910) which may be for the Model 1912. About the only good reference I have found for Winchester's internal workings and firearm designer bios is Harold Williamson's "Winchester, The Gun That Won the West." Washington: Combat Forces Press 1952
Amazing how much trouble went into designing the 1911. Someday a person with an engineering background will dive in and write up the trials and tribulations Winchester went through to get around the Browning patent and design the '11 from scratch. It's a shame no one gives Winchester's designers any credit for what surely must have been an enormously detailed, multi-year project.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 19:27:11 GMT -5
rmh,
OOPS! Sorry for the typo. Here's what I should have typed: 1907 - October 30, 1906 - 834,578. I'll go back and edit my post.
I, too, am staggered by the amount of work Winchester poured into their Model 1911. But consider what they were up against: their own attorneys had sewn-up Browning's designs so tightly. Browning's patents left no place for an operating handle, thus the Model 1911 relied instead on a knurled section of the barrel.
With so much time and effort expended, the Model 1911 must have been considered extremely important to the front office at Winchester. Thirteen patents over seventeen years, and then to have a relatively short production life of seventeen years.
I sort of regret it now, but some years back I passed up the opportunity on a Model 1911. It was in beautiful condition, looking like it had hardly ever been fired, but I had been told that they malfunctioned more often than not, and when they did function the recoil was horrendous. I opted for a Model 07 instead. Well, I never was much of one for a shotgun, and I've never regretted the 07.
I'll have to look for that book. When I'm not too busy prowling the patent office.
Jim
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 23:21:24 GMT -5
Just an update to the patents:
Model 1905 - December 10, 1901 Still no luck on this one.
Model 1911 - November 4, 1902 I found two patents assigned to Winchester for this date: (1) 712,826: Combined Percussion and Electric Primer, granted to William Mason. I'm certain this patent is not relevant to the Model 1911 shotgun. (2) 712,863: Front Sight for Firearms, granted to Albert Tilton. This patent in primarily concerned with making a metallic front sight with a light-colored metal bead adhered directly to a sight post of blued steel. This one may be relevant, as sights for shotguns were at this time generally either made all of brass, or of ivory affixed to a brass or steel pin.
Model 1911 - May 7, 1919 This date is wrong. No patents were issued on that day. Patents have always been issued on Tuesdays. In 1919, May 7 was on a Wednesday. I've searched May 6, but haven't found anything. Even May 7, 1918 (a Tuesday), has yielded nothing. Model 1911 - June 4, 1919 This one is the same as for May 7, 1919; again, the date is for a Wednesday. Likewise, I've searched June 3, 1919, and June 4, 1918, but also with no luck.
Incorrect dates being listed on firearms would have been nothing new. The Remington Model 8 carried the incorrect patent date of July 3, 1902, from 1906 to at least 1911. The correct date was June 3, 1902.
Jim
|
|
|
Post by logjam on Feb 5, 2009 16:35:40 GMT -5
One of the very best gun show finds is a Remington model 11. It's the Browning shotgun and looks like, but it not identical to a Browning Auto 5.
They stopped making the Model 11 in 1948, so all of them are old. I bought mine in a pawn shop for $160. It's a 20 and mint. The owner had put a Poly Choke on it, which I like. I think some guy set the rifle up for his wife and she never shot it.
Model 11's are still cheap. Mine works great. Twelves are heavy, but they are war horses.
As someone mentioned above Browning offered the gun to Winchester. Browning had, after all developed the 97 Win, the Falling Block and the 86/92 and Model 71.
Browning's genius is well illustrated by the difficult to design 8's and Remington 11's. He said that the shotgun was his most difficult design. It had to shoot heavy and light loads you see. Thus that little ring inside.
When I was in the infantry we used to shoot the HB .50 caliber machinegun. The gun was a joy to behold. It's a Browning design and little changed since 1906. That .50 cal is still the best gun for what it is anywhere on Earth.
Same can be said for the MG 42 however.
|
|
jimp
New Member
Posts: 4
|
Post by jimp on Dec 23, 2009 15:57:02 GMT -5
Hi; I'll throw this in 'cause my searching has turned up nothing.........my 1905 WSL(made in 1906) is .30 cal. It shoots 30 carbine ammo, the barrel is marked .30 US and the mag is marked 35 cal. The previous owner had no info other than his Dad just used it for hunting. Anyone got any ideas? JimP
|
|
|
Post by lgbarnes1950 on Jun 15, 2010 20:53:32 GMT -5
Fellas, I feel a little intimidated by all the knowledge here but I have recently aquired a little winchester rifle that has me baffled. It has no model #. It is stamped Winchester repeating Arms, Chicopee. Pat. pending. It is a take down model and appears to be a .22. It loads through the bottom of the stock through a slot exposed by sliding a rod out of the butt plate. There is a small knob that operates a slide on the side to chamber the first round. On the butt plate there is stamped: Remington UMC. If I could figure out how to put a picture here, I would. Any guesses?
|
|
|
Post by Hardrada55 on Jun 15, 2010 22:13:35 GMT -5
Is this it? If so, it is a Remington Model 16, and shoots the old .22 Remington Auto cartridge. Made from 1914? to about 1928.
|
|
|
Post by lgbarnes1950 on Jun 16, 2010 6:39:22 GMT -5
Bingo! That's the first pic I've seen of this rifle. Thanks a million! If It's a remington, why is it stamped withthe winchester name on the barrel?
|
|
|
Post by Hardrada55 on Jun 16, 2010 7:02:14 GMT -5
I have heard tell of some Remington Model 16s converted to ammunition which is more easily obtained than the scarce .22 Reminton Auto cartridge. This one may have a Winchester 63 barrel stuck on it in an attempt to be able to use .22 Winchester Auto, which seems to be easier to find. Or maybe it was converted to use regular .22 ammo. But that is just speculation on my part. Converted rifles....you got issues with collectability and whether the dang thing would work reliably They are cool old rifles and I've always coveted a nice one. I think I got a box or two of .22 Rem Auto laying around too.
|
|