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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 30, 2011 19:38:05 GMT -5
serial number 45515, bayonet tangs at front, slide sight attachment on left of body at rear for rear sights, ejection to the right. does not have the finger scoup on the thingying plunger like the hunting rifle versions. missing rear sights and bayonet. im looking for the bayonet and rear sights if anyone has any leads on originals. apparently its a KRAG bayonet, i just dont know which one. i assume its a jorgensen rear sight as well, ive seen a pic but cant locate it on the web to post it here now. comments pls, i was offered 750.00 for it like it is. no sling swings on it, appears to have never had them so i tend to think its police or federal. was accompanied by a H&R 22 cal 9 shot pistol from the same era (H&R inc. WORC. MASS. USA). ive looked all over and pictures of this rifle are hard to come by, much less any parts for this particualr model, that i can see. any help would be apreciated all comments welcome. Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 30, 2011 19:40:13 GMT -5
just some mor epics of this rifle Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 30, 2011 19:43:13 GMT -5
one more pic Attachments:
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rmh
Junior Member
Posts: 95
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Post by rmh on Jan 30, 2011 21:50:46 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing photos of your rifle. I am sorry to disappoint you, but what you have is just another altered Winchester Model 1907. I would like to see some close-up images of the end of the barrel. From your initial photos, it sorta looks to be larger in diameter than the rest of the barrel. Maybe a thread-protector covering threads used to mount a silencer? Here's what leads me to such a conclusion about your rifle: Yes, your rifle lacks the combined front sight/bayonet mount sleeve. It appears the barrel of your rifle was cut down from the standard 20" length. Someone MIGHT have hack-sawed off the bayonet mount for some reason, however there is another unique feature of the police rifle variant. The police variant had a fixed rear sight in a dovetail cut closer to the receiver than the sporting rifle. For comparison purposes, the following is a police rifle variant currently for sale at Collector's Firearms: collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=27943Other features of your rifle that might be of interest: -Early-style round thingying plunger tip -Early-style stock with the longer wrist, thinner wood, and much more fragile - A brazed-on side-mount scope base is installed, maybe a Griffin & Howe. - Aftermarket replacement magazine with a flat rather than slanted magazine baseplate (typical of factory and some aftermarket mags)
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 17:26:29 GMT -5
ah bad news bad news. but its news, tyvm. ill send some mor epics, hopefully better quality. youd think a 15mp camera would take better pics. you certainly seem to know what your talking about. there is a notch dovetailed in the barrel about 4 inches from the front of the body/ houseing. if the side slide mount is brazed its cleverly done. possibly attached through the ejection area, before assembly? is the side slide mount a factory item? the barrel front measures 11/16 across give or take a 32nd and looks like possibly theres is a pressure ring slippe don, or some such, with a cross thatch pattern centered on it. i dont think it comes off i wouldnt dare take a tool to it myself, but i cant budge it by hand or with a strap wrench. it does not push pull or release any way i can tell. you say my rifle has some earlier features, my best geuss was around '37. can you tell me more perhaps? i would love to research the serial number the link i found earlier within the forums here was dead, to a firearms museum. please forgive any bad spelling and such thingyings. i thought i had corrected that. its hard to see the keys at night with my woman asleep behind me and no lights!
ok after calming down a bit and slowing down and comparing the police issue model and mine, yeah your probably right because my dovetail cut is farther from the houseing body. there seems to never have been any sling swings though. the wood foregrip and butt match in color and finish and finish condition. the rear grip is longer and thinner than the police issue, and likely your right about being cut down, unless a shorter carbine was released for sale over seas to the brits or other foreign nation? i do know that several foreign nations ordered several million rifles from winchester between x and x years. now im a bit hung up on the muzzle tip, as you are on this firearm. possibly for a silencer you say? so please, any additional help would be apreciated.
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 18:51:58 GMT -5
not good quality but you can see the line between the barrrel end and whatever that ring is with crossthatch in the center(thatched pattern not visoble in this line of sight not visible ) Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 18:56:59 GMT -5
again, bad quality but a view. Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 18:57:57 GMT -5
dovetail notch at rear Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 18:59:45 GMT -5
left view of the slide on the body Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 19:00:50 GMT -5
right side top down view of slide on body Attachments:
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 19:03:35 GMT -5
last view of the muzzle end and that thatched bit. so basicly i gather form what youve said and the evidence you shown, that i have either a customized weapon, or a hacked down one. in the end, i spose i just need to track this weapons manufacture and where it was shipped, and what it wa smanufactured as, ie hunting rifle or....whatever. though hunting rifle is indeed looking more likely. any help, apreciated. Attachments:
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rmh
Junior Member
Posts: 95
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Post by rmh on Jan 31, 2011 22:10:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the additional photos. Most digital cameras have a setting for close-ups. Look for a flower-symbol, sort of like a tulip. You most certainly have a unique rifle, likely modified by a gunsmith. I would bet the same person modified the barrel and added the scope mount. This type of scope mount was introduced in 1927 by Griffin & Howe, a custom gunsmithing firm. Just as it appears, the scope base is a monolithic block of steel permanently fixed to the side of the receiver. A scope rail clamps down onto the groove machined at the top of the base. I have no idea if your rifle has an original Griffin & Howe mount. Below is a photo from the Griffin & Howe website showing this type of mount on a Mauser rifle: I don't have any further information to contribute about the muzzle, just my observations and some tips. From the photos, it appears to be a separate piece from the barrel. The larger diameter implies this piece may fit over the barrel (rather than just functioning as a barrel extension). If it fits over the barrel, you may be able to see the seam where the metal of this piece meets the metal of the barrel by looking at the crown of the rifle barrel. The serrations suggest this piece was meant to be readily removable by hand. Probably threaded rather than slipped on, otherwise it may be easily lost. If you cannot remove it by hand or by a strap wrench, the threads might be seized by rust. OR perhaps someone permanently fixed this piece by soldering/cementing/gluing it in place. IF threaded for a silencer, someone fearing the reach of the 1934 National Firearms Act (which regulated the registration of silencers, but not the firearms made to accept them, i.e. with threaded barrels), might have fixed this piece in place to hide the threads. Does the rifle appear to have been stored in an environment where rust may have happened? If so, I would try some good penetrating oil such as Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, or Marvel Mystery Oil. Maybe set the rifle upside down, barrel into a container of your favorite oil. Let it sit for a few days and try to remove the piece again. If not luck, let it sit for a few more days. Try and try again if you have the patience. Another trick is indirect heat- put a torch on a metal rod set inside the bore of the rifle. After it heats up, try removing it again. You can also "shock" the seized threads by heating and quickly cooling with dry ice. Maybe you will have luck, maybe not. If rusted, maybe you dissolve the rust with oil. If soldered, maybe you can loosen the solder with the heat. About factory records: The Cody Firearms Museum at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center has the Winchester factory records. Unfortunately no records for the Model 1907 survive except for the first 9,999 rifles. The website address is www.bbhc.org/firearms/
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rmh
Junior Member
Posts: 95
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Post by rmh on Jan 31, 2011 23:00:03 GMT -5
I consulted George Madis' The Winchester Handbook and came up with the following information about your rifle: - According to Madis' research, your rifle was made in 1930. The last Model 1907 made in 1929 was #45318; 1930 ended with #45630. Since your rifle is #45515, it fits in the 1930 range and was one of 311 rifles made that year. I know some websites like oldguns.net gives the year of manufacture for your rifle as 1937, and Madis' research on some other models has come into question, but I will stick with Madis' numbers until more information comes along (you can read some of the controversy here: winchestercollector.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2457)- Sling swivels were made standard after rifle #23,171. They could be left off by special order. Since your rifle, #45515, does not appear to ever had sling swivels it was likely ordered without them.
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Jan 31, 2011 23:32:20 GMT -5
one of 311 made in that year..wow. so does the modifications ruin or increase the value of this rifle? does this being a limited manufacture help? mind you id like to keep it, id just like to know what she might be worth, and if the value increased or decreased. you guys are awesome, i will give the front end a good soak in some penetrating oil, yes you can see the seperation when viewing the muzzle end/ crown. i dont understand why anyone would shorten this weapon, and put a scope on it though...is there any other sort of mounted sight that may fit the slide that perhaps has a elevator, flip up or iron sight possibly fit to this weapon? i wish you guys could see it in person. its just killing me. any clues what it may be valued at and, and insight into finding some sights? id love to fire it and see if its auto or semi, modified trigger or stock. finding the ammunition is easy enough i discovered. parts for this lil guy arent. i dread aksing you guys to do all this foot work on a strangers behalf, i do. although i must admit, you fellas seem to have all your references handy and apparently have been at this for awhile and i just cant stop myself. my searching turns up little of fruition. are you a bonified experts by chance?
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Post by brightwhiteknight on Feb 5, 2011 16:51:55 GMT -5
hello again. well sir once more your correct im glad to say! the ring on the muzzle/crown of the rifle does indeed unscrew and there is no rust inside at all. for some reason it was seized but with a few passes of a heat gun (so as not to ruin any temper or coloring) and it slipped right off, and even had some old grease in there still nice and slick. i would love to fire this weapon she seems like shes more than functional. the ammo ii can find seems to be a basic lead round low grain for 1 us dollar a round. if there is a cheaper supplier id love to know, even if theyre a local reloader.
thanks for all your help! ive noticed there havent been any replies to my thread in several days where as it drew immediate replies upon post, so if your no longer interested in volunteering your time and expertise toward me, just let me know, and ill gladly stop bothering you. and i mean that with no disrespect, and i am super glad to have had your expertise on my side for any amount of time. if by chance you are a bonified expert pls let me know your rates and fees for time spent, and perhaps i can afford to compensate your time in the future. i would like to find an original scope mount like you pictured above and an age apropriate scope, along with a new age scope. also a silencer (unless illegal im not sure if pre equipt weapons are grandfathered NOW or not) or perhaps a MOCK SILENCER unless that will break some federal laws, to make it like it was intended. sincerely WTH
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