Post by jack1653 on Dec 6, 2009 12:23:32 GMT -5
Hey Readers,
I want to share the story of how I acquired this rifle and the low and high emotions that other Remington Model 8 owners have experienced in getting something they really wanted. I first saw this rifle on Gun Broker and it was one of the first I had tried to buy on auction sites. I did not get the rifle and was sad that I was not successfully in my efforts. I was so frustrated with the bidding process because of my ignorance that I even posted my frustrations on the Forum about auctions. I got some good words of encouragement from "81police" and "model8man". As luck would have it, three months later the rifle appeared for sale again on Gun Broker. My ignorance had given way to experience and advice and I was able to buy the rifle. The rifle had improved in appearance thanks to the diligent and competent attention to detail of the then current owner. I was on a high and feeling lucky to have such an early first year production Remington Model 8.
The previous owner gave me permission to use his description of the rifle. He gave me the pictures that you will be able to see on the link at the end of this narrative. I have made some editorial changes to the original description. I want to acknowledge Mr. Jeff Pajtas of the "S and S HuntClub" and his brother Bob for their assistance in getting me the rifle and the answer to the questions I had about the rifle.
This is a "Vintage/Classic" 1906 Remington Model 8 in the game stopping, 35 Remington. This Remington Model 8 is serial number 59! Remington produced approximately 2266 of these fine rifles in 1906 and this is number 59.
The previous owner took great care to take down the rifle and took more than 100 photographs. He provided them to me so that I can share them with you to completely view the rifle, its "Number Matching" parts and its simple design. The serial number is (59) has a letter "J" with a circle around it, above and below the serial number on the bottom of the receiver. The barrel code is stamped with the(X PP 3). There is also, 35 REM. stamped on the top of the barrel jacket head, where it meets the receiver. It is "Factory Stamped" on the barrel extension with (35 REM) and a "Diamond Shaped" mark as well. There is also the (R E P) stamped on the barrel, which I believe stands for "Remington English Proof".
The previous owner took great care in removing the butt-stock screw and butt-stock, to show the "Factory Stamped" serial number (59) on the inner side of the trigger plate/receiver assembly of the rifle. The Butt-Stock is "Factory Stamped" with the serial number (59). The stock was "Factory Fitted" to this rifle when it was manufactured in 1906. It has the "Original" factory butt-plate. I understand Remington did not mark these rifles with the Remington trade-mark MODEL 8, like they did in the later years.
The previous mentioned markings, demonstrate that this rifle is an "Original/Numbers Matching" rifle. The rifle is fitted with a rear sight blank, a Redfield rear-tang peep sight and factory front sight as well.
The Remington Arms Co. and its employees, took great pride in their work, during that era. The simplicity of its design is really remarkable. The rifle can be taken down with the simple removal of the forearm screw. Pull open the bolt, turn the take down lever and remove the barrel from the receiver.
The stock and forearm are original to the rifle and they sport the normal wear, dings, bumps, chips and scratches for a rifle of this era. Considering the rifle is 103 years old, it is in fine shape. This rifle has some finish wear, minor freckling and wood wear; from being handled throughout its 103+ years, but appears to be well cared for. The bore is bright and shiny.
The previous owner used this rifle during the opening weekend of the 2009 Michigan whitetail deer season and he said it functioned flawlessly, was accurate and was a blast to shoot! If you have had the chance to hold and shoulder one of these rifles, then you know that they feel and function like no others do. Its just a very nice feeling, hunting with a vintage rifle in your hands. Even if you don't bag that trophy, hunting with a Vintage Remington Model 8 rifle, just seems to make the day!
Among the question I asked Jeff was the observation made by 81police. 81police had communicated to me through the forum about the barrel being a replacement. I asked Jeff if the barrel was a replacement and Jeff was forthright in his comments and offered some observations that I want to offer to the readers.
I want to thank 81police for giving me some additional information about this issue. 81police provided the following comments: "It's good to see you doing your homework on these rifles. I will point out that the barrel being a replacement is fact, not speculation. Remington did not roll stamp the caliber on barrel extensions until sometime in 1907, prior to that they were all hand engraved on the top of the barrel jacket head only. You may ask yourself, well why does my rifle have both with the correct patent dates, and front sight? Keep in mind Jack that the barrel jacket and the barrel are two different parts. You can easily retain your original barrel jacket with sights and swap out the barrel inside. Seeing as this rifle has a repair code, there's a very good chance that the barrel was a replacement done by Remington with a .35Rem barrel of later manufacture. That would explain the original barrel jacket, sights, and the missing serial number on the barrel. If I had to guess, I'd say that's what happened."
I want to thank Hardrada55 for his comments about the rifle and giving his approval for this posting on The Vintage Semi Auto Sports Rifle. He has also presented yet another issue to check out. Maybe some of you can comment on his question about the stripper clips. I will try and get some more pictures that Hardrada55 is suggesting to add to the link at the bottom of the page.
I wish I were closer to some of you veterans so that I could have your hands on assessment on these issues. The following quote is from Hardrada55: "Please post some of the pictures, too. Compare your #59 rifle's stripper clip guides to the stripper clip guides on your other rifles. I was shown by Eric Hutchins years ago that some very early rifles were not made with stripper clip guides milled into the receiver. #59 looks like it may have them, but the pictures don't look the same as other rifles I have. Anyway, let me know, who knows, I may be seeing things that aren't there. Regards, Walt"
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The following comments in this section (*) were submitted by Jeff after I raised the question about the barrel replacement.
In regards to the barrel question, I honestly do not know. I do know that the early production model 8's that we have are not marked on the barrels with the serial number like the later model 8's that we have. I never questioned that, just assumed from previous experience, that the barrel was original. My reasoning behind the assumption was this:
1.) It appears to have the original high post front sight.
2.) The barrel was not marked with a 059 or 59, on the underside of the barrel jacket, where it meets the receiver.. like the later models. The 1913 Model 8 in 35 Rem. that we have, is also not marked in that location. The 1926 and 1928 that I have here with me tonight, both have the serial numbers on the barrel underside.
3.) The top of the barrel has a unique style 35 Rem. stamping on the top of the barrel, where it meets the receiver. That marking is one that we have only seen on the very early models and the higher grade model 8's and it does not appear on my 1913 model 8 or any of the others.
4.) Another good indicator that the barrel is period correct is that the patent numbers on the barrel jacket are only stamped / noted through July 3, 1902. It is stamped as follows: MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION, N.Y. U.S.A BROWNING'S PATENTS OCT. 9, 1900 , OCT. 16, 1900 , JULY 3,1902.
There is another very unique stamping on the 1906, #59, that I have yet to see and I just noticed tonight for the very first time. I will get to that in a moment Jack.
5.) I took a look at some of our other model 8's just now that I have here with me and they are as follows:
(1913 / 35 Rem. , 1926 / 32 Rem. and 1928 / 35 Rem.) They have the following patent numbers listed on the barrel jacket.
5a.) The 1913, 1926 & 1928 are all stamped as follows: OCT. 9, 1900, OCT. 16, 1900, JUNE 3, 1902, MAY 14, 1907, FEB.14, 1911
6.) Here's the unique stamping that I noticed tonight, that I have yet to notice...until this evening.
The 1913, 1926 and 1928 ... all have the same Browning patent numbers, as listed above. Notice JUNE 3, 1902.
On the 1906 #59, the JUNE 3, 1902 stamping is missing and the 1906 #59 is marked with JULY 3, 1902
WHY ???? ..... I do not know the answer to that. Is it, or was it mistakenly miss-marked at the factory? I haven't seen that on another model 8, nor did I notice that until tonight on the 1906 #59
7.) If that is indeed a " miss-marked patent number " on the barrel jacket, it would add some heavy money to the value of the rifle. I am going to try and research that July 3, 1902 patent number. Very odd from what I have seen to date. why is it marked July ???... that's very unique.
8.) Another thing that I take into consideration on this rifle is that its the 59th rifle that they produced, and it could have some markings that were unique to this rifle. The rifle was just starting to evolve at that time.
Remington did start toying around with upgrades such as, the Model 8C Special grade, the Model 8D Peerless, the Model 8E Expert and the Grand Daddy of them all, the Model 8F Premier and I have seen the 35 Rem. fancier stamping in the top of the Barrel Jacket on some of the higher grade Model 8's.
These indicators would lead me in the direction that the barrel is correct for the rifle.
1.) The patent numbers are only listed through 1902 on the 1906 #59. That is a good indicator for me and tells me its period correct for the rifle.
2.) The barrel is not stamped with a serial number 059 or 59 anywhere, which would be correct.
3.)The high post front sight appears to be period correct.
and the all important " I think its the big one" as Fred Sanford would say...
4.) It has a JULY 3, 1902 patent number that I have yet to see on a model 8 and it does not have the JUNE 3, 1902 patent number.
I am not a expert by any means Jack and I sure would like to find out why it does not have the JUNE 3, 1902 patent number and why its marked with JULY 3, 1902 and not the JUNE 3, 1902 ... like the other rifles ???
Let me know what you find out about the July 3, 1902 patent number, if you would please?
*******************************************************************************************************
jack1653
I want to share the story of how I acquired this rifle and the low and high emotions that other Remington Model 8 owners have experienced in getting something they really wanted. I first saw this rifle on Gun Broker and it was one of the first I had tried to buy on auction sites. I did not get the rifle and was sad that I was not successfully in my efforts. I was so frustrated with the bidding process because of my ignorance that I even posted my frustrations on the Forum about auctions. I got some good words of encouragement from "81police" and "model8man". As luck would have it, three months later the rifle appeared for sale again on Gun Broker. My ignorance had given way to experience and advice and I was able to buy the rifle. The rifle had improved in appearance thanks to the diligent and competent attention to detail of the then current owner. I was on a high and feeling lucky to have such an early first year production Remington Model 8.
The previous owner gave me permission to use his description of the rifle. He gave me the pictures that you will be able to see on the link at the end of this narrative. I have made some editorial changes to the original description. I want to acknowledge Mr. Jeff Pajtas of the "S and S HuntClub" and his brother Bob for their assistance in getting me the rifle and the answer to the questions I had about the rifle.
This is a "Vintage/Classic" 1906 Remington Model 8 in the game stopping, 35 Remington. This Remington Model 8 is serial number 59! Remington produced approximately 2266 of these fine rifles in 1906 and this is number 59.
The previous owner took great care to take down the rifle and took more than 100 photographs. He provided them to me so that I can share them with you to completely view the rifle, its "Number Matching" parts and its simple design. The serial number is (59) has a letter "J" with a circle around it, above and below the serial number on the bottom of the receiver. The barrel code is stamped with the(X PP 3). There is also, 35 REM. stamped on the top of the barrel jacket head, where it meets the receiver. It is "Factory Stamped" on the barrel extension with (35 REM) and a "Diamond Shaped" mark as well. There is also the (R E P) stamped on the barrel, which I believe stands for "Remington English Proof".
The previous owner took great care in removing the butt-stock screw and butt-stock, to show the "Factory Stamped" serial number (59) on the inner side of the trigger plate/receiver assembly of the rifle. The Butt-Stock is "Factory Stamped" with the serial number (59). The stock was "Factory Fitted" to this rifle when it was manufactured in 1906. It has the "Original" factory butt-plate. I understand Remington did not mark these rifles with the Remington trade-mark MODEL 8, like they did in the later years.
The previous mentioned markings, demonstrate that this rifle is an "Original/Numbers Matching" rifle. The rifle is fitted with a rear sight blank, a Redfield rear-tang peep sight and factory front sight as well.
The Remington Arms Co. and its employees, took great pride in their work, during that era. The simplicity of its design is really remarkable. The rifle can be taken down with the simple removal of the forearm screw. Pull open the bolt, turn the take down lever and remove the barrel from the receiver.
The stock and forearm are original to the rifle and they sport the normal wear, dings, bumps, chips and scratches for a rifle of this era. Considering the rifle is 103 years old, it is in fine shape. This rifle has some finish wear, minor freckling and wood wear; from being handled throughout its 103+ years, but appears to be well cared for. The bore is bright and shiny.
The previous owner used this rifle during the opening weekend of the 2009 Michigan whitetail deer season and he said it functioned flawlessly, was accurate and was a blast to shoot! If you have had the chance to hold and shoulder one of these rifles, then you know that they feel and function like no others do. Its just a very nice feeling, hunting with a vintage rifle in your hands. Even if you don't bag that trophy, hunting with a Vintage Remington Model 8 rifle, just seems to make the day!
Among the question I asked Jeff was the observation made by 81police. 81police had communicated to me through the forum about the barrel being a replacement. I asked Jeff if the barrel was a replacement and Jeff was forthright in his comments and offered some observations that I want to offer to the readers.
I want to thank 81police for giving me some additional information about this issue. 81police provided the following comments: "It's good to see you doing your homework on these rifles. I will point out that the barrel being a replacement is fact, not speculation. Remington did not roll stamp the caliber on barrel extensions until sometime in 1907, prior to that they were all hand engraved on the top of the barrel jacket head only. You may ask yourself, well why does my rifle have both with the correct patent dates, and front sight? Keep in mind Jack that the barrel jacket and the barrel are two different parts. You can easily retain your original barrel jacket with sights and swap out the barrel inside. Seeing as this rifle has a repair code, there's a very good chance that the barrel was a replacement done by Remington with a .35Rem barrel of later manufacture. That would explain the original barrel jacket, sights, and the missing serial number on the barrel. If I had to guess, I'd say that's what happened."
I want to thank Hardrada55 for his comments about the rifle and giving his approval for this posting on The Vintage Semi Auto Sports Rifle. He has also presented yet another issue to check out. Maybe some of you can comment on his question about the stripper clips. I will try and get some more pictures that Hardrada55 is suggesting to add to the link at the bottom of the page.
I wish I were closer to some of you veterans so that I could have your hands on assessment on these issues. The following quote is from Hardrada55: "Please post some of the pictures, too. Compare your #59 rifle's stripper clip guides to the stripper clip guides on your other rifles. I was shown by Eric Hutchins years ago that some very early rifles were not made with stripper clip guides milled into the receiver. #59 looks like it may have them, but the pictures don't look the same as other rifles I have. Anyway, let me know, who knows, I may be seeing things that aren't there. Regards, Walt"
*************************************************************************************************************
The following comments in this section (*) were submitted by Jeff after I raised the question about the barrel replacement.
In regards to the barrel question, I honestly do not know. I do know that the early production model 8's that we have are not marked on the barrels with the serial number like the later model 8's that we have. I never questioned that, just assumed from previous experience, that the barrel was original. My reasoning behind the assumption was this:
1.) It appears to have the original high post front sight.
2.) The barrel was not marked with a 059 or 59, on the underside of the barrel jacket, where it meets the receiver.. like the later models. The 1913 Model 8 in 35 Rem. that we have, is also not marked in that location. The 1926 and 1928 that I have here with me tonight, both have the serial numbers on the barrel underside.
3.) The top of the barrel has a unique style 35 Rem. stamping on the top of the barrel, where it meets the receiver. That marking is one that we have only seen on the very early models and the higher grade model 8's and it does not appear on my 1913 model 8 or any of the others.
4.) Another good indicator that the barrel is period correct is that the patent numbers on the barrel jacket are only stamped / noted through July 3, 1902. It is stamped as follows: MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION, N.Y. U.S.A BROWNING'S PATENTS OCT. 9, 1900 , OCT. 16, 1900 , JULY 3,1902.
There is another very unique stamping on the 1906, #59, that I have yet to see and I just noticed tonight for the very first time. I will get to that in a moment Jack.
5.) I took a look at some of our other model 8's just now that I have here with me and they are as follows:
(1913 / 35 Rem. , 1926 / 32 Rem. and 1928 / 35 Rem.) They have the following patent numbers listed on the barrel jacket.
5a.) The 1913, 1926 & 1928 are all stamped as follows: OCT. 9, 1900, OCT. 16, 1900, JUNE 3, 1902, MAY 14, 1907, FEB.14, 1911
6.) Here's the unique stamping that I noticed tonight, that I have yet to notice...until this evening.
The 1913, 1926 and 1928 ... all have the same Browning patent numbers, as listed above. Notice JUNE 3, 1902.
On the 1906 #59, the JUNE 3, 1902 stamping is missing and the 1906 #59 is marked with JULY 3, 1902
WHY ???? ..... I do not know the answer to that. Is it, or was it mistakenly miss-marked at the factory? I haven't seen that on another model 8, nor did I notice that until tonight on the 1906 #59
7.) If that is indeed a " miss-marked patent number " on the barrel jacket, it would add some heavy money to the value of the rifle. I am going to try and research that July 3, 1902 patent number. Very odd from what I have seen to date. why is it marked July ???... that's very unique.
8.) Another thing that I take into consideration on this rifle is that its the 59th rifle that they produced, and it could have some markings that were unique to this rifle. The rifle was just starting to evolve at that time.
Remington did start toying around with upgrades such as, the Model 8C Special grade, the Model 8D Peerless, the Model 8E Expert and the Grand Daddy of them all, the Model 8F Premier and I have seen the 35 Rem. fancier stamping in the top of the Barrel Jacket on some of the higher grade Model 8's.
These indicators would lead me in the direction that the barrel is correct for the rifle.
1.) The patent numbers are only listed through 1902 on the 1906 #59. That is a good indicator for me and tells me its period correct for the rifle.
2.) The barrel is not stamped with a serial number 059 or 59 anywhere, which would be correct.
3.)The high post front sight appears to be period correct.
and the all important " I think its the big one" as Fred Sanford would say...
4.) It has a JULY 3, 1902 patent number that I have yet to see on a model 8 and it does not have the JUNE 3, 1902 patent number.
I am not a expert by any means Jack and I sure would like to find out why it does not have the JUNE 3, 1902 patent number and why its marked with JULY 3, 1902 and not the JUNE 3, 1902 ... like the other rifles ???
Let me know what you find out about the July 3, 1902 patent number, if you would please?
*******************************************************************************************************
jack1653