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Post by texashoosier on May 14, 2010 0:16:10 GMT -5
Are the barrels interchangable between the M1905 and 1907? Can you convert a 1905 to .351SL and a 1907 to .32SL?
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Post by Hardrada55 on May 14, 2010 8:35:26 GMT -5
I do not think so. The reason being that the "delay" in the Winchester Self-Loading rifles "delayed blowback" action is provided by the weight of the bolt. The bolt extends up into the forearm. Because the cartridges are of different powers, i.e., different bullet weights and velocities, the bolts themselves have to be of different weights. The bolt of a 1905 rifle doesn't weight enough to properly work with the more powerful .351 WSL round and the .32 SL cartridge isn't strong enough to properly work with the heavy bolt of the 1907 rifle, which, as you know, was made to work with the .351 cartridge. I have seen a 1905 rifle which was converted to shoot .30 Carbine and once years ago I heard about one 1905 being converted to .218 Bee, but I am very skeptical about how well anyone could make one of those conversions work, as a practical matter. I haven't even heard about 1907 rifles being converted to any other calibers.
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Post by texashoosier on May 14, 2010 19:50:34 GMT -5
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Post by wsl49er on May 17, 2010 10:59:35 GMT -5
On the case link: The 223 case may be able to be shortened but the nominal dimensions of the 351wsl vary with the gun and it's magazine requirements. While the Handbooks and other references list the overall length of the shell and roundnose slug at 1.900 " the several factory magazines I have will not accept the shell at that length without resistance against the inside front face of the magazine and the slug. This may be due to changes in radius or the curve of the slug (ogive) leading to the radius of the slug nose. Early Ideal handbooks and cartridge references make the nominal sizes as overall case length 1.380 inches, .032" difference from the 1.412 of the article on the 338-223 The rim, which I noticed on a number of custom loads from several vendors are less than the .410 nominal and seem to reside in the .405 to .407 range. This may be due to a necessity to reduce the friction against the top leaves of the magazine but should not be necessary with a properly functioning magazine and rifle. The standard Remington .223. rim diameter is .378" smaller than the nominal .410" rim diameter of the 351wsl by .032". Measuring the extractor this leaves little for the extractor to grab since it does not fold in as in some rifle extractors. Stretch marks are visible using moderate loads in 357 Maximum brass which was machined to be nominal in all areas except the diameter of the case near the rear of the shell ahead of the extractor. With the shell casing of the 223 being close to the same diameter as the 351wsl near the rim the forward dimension of the 223 case is .019" less than the prescribed 351wsl neck dimension of .377. A good bit of stretch.
As to barrel swapping there may be way more to it than simply threading or un-threading the barrel. Bolt and other springs, magazine and mag well, receiver, bolt guide rod, bolt face, extractor, ejector would have to be modified to satisfy the needs of a changed caliber. Since the bolt and bolt weight are integral there may be a need to replace the entire assembly or re-manufacture the existing one. You would definitely have to change more than would appear on the surface to be reasonable and the loads of the 32sl are half or less than those of the 351wsl. Hardrada55 is right on the bolt assembly, it's unlikely the springs, and weight could be used without change or modification.
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Post by wsl49er on May 19, 2010 9:19:12 GMT -5
I thought I would add this to your case use information since it looked interesting as the .223 cases are way more plentiful. Personally I don't think I'd try it and would stick to head stamped .351 wsl brass which is available from Quality Cartridge in Maryland or continue to use the modified .357 Maximum brass cases offered from various vendors, I cut down my own .357 Max cases and then looked at cross sections to make sure the webbing was thick enough. The extractor groove on the .223 seems somewhat smaller than some of the grooves on the factory made ammo, vendor made ammo and information on extractor grooves I was able to glean from various sources. I cut a .223 in half and measured the wall thickness and also measured the case where it would be cut to length. The base of a .357 Maximum case is thicker metal and the case shape is fairly straight walled. The .223 case is tapered from from .374"± near the rim to .352 ± at the cut-off point which would have to be stretched open to the nominal O.D. of .377" of the .351wsl case requirement. Even with annealing this looks like it may weaken the brass and cause splits. A friend brought to mind the case pressures between the two different shell casings. I found various CUPs for the 223 but could find none for the .351wsl or for the .357 Maximum.
Just some things to consider.
EDIT: See post in Handloading for NOT USING 223 comments. Also found CUP Maximum for 351WSL. @45,000 CUPS (this is suspect) exceeds 357 Maximum by 5000 CUP.
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Post by texashoosier on Jun 5, 2010 15:49:42 GMT -5
The .357 Maximum was originally rated to 48,000 CUP. Present Remington brass is actually heavier than the Federal brass that was used for the original ratings. Do not go by any present data as all loads for that cartridge have been steadily lowered since the late 80's and Ruger's blackballing of the cartridge. Accurate Arms, in fact, loads only to a specific density and not pressure; hence their "maximum" (forgive the pun) pressure loads running as low as 38,000 CUP.
Here is what I originally had in mind. The .351 barrel cannot be rebored to .357"/.358", but a .32 caliber barrel can be. The case I had in mind was the .360 Dan Wesson, which is a .357 Maximum shortened from 1.605" to 1.415". The bullets used initially would be Beartooth's 180gr WLN+P-GC with the cartridge having an overall length of 1.865"....or the Hornady 180gr XTP seated to the lower crimp groove for an overall length of 1.826". Another possible bullet is the 150gr Remington CL-PSP, depending on the overall length it creates. This would only require the 351 barrel to be replaced by a rebored .32 as the power level would be nearly identical to the original .351. Reloading components, however, would be much easier to locate, less expensive and bullet variety increased considerably.
Additional Info: Wolff has an extra-power recoil spring should the .360 Dan Wesson prove to be hotter than the .351SL.
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Post by blackbahart on Jun 7, 2013 3:46:54 GMT -5
the barrels do interchange on the receivers and index up . I also converted a 1907 351wsl to 30 carbine .We relined the barrel and chambered it .The weight seems to be right and runs great .Had to recut the ejector grove on the bolt ,replace the ejector to a 32wsl which fit in no mod and modify the extractor to capture the 30carbine rim .A 1905 32wsl would have been easier to do a 30 carbine to We also converted a 1910 401 to .44 automag by a rebore and chamber .Had to polish out the mag to feed smoothly ,but it could have just been my mag .This was a lot easier to do and has quite a thump
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Post by blackbahart on Aug 8, 2013 0:24:47 GMT -5
Has anyone seen a 1907 modified to use the 338-223 strait ?
A friend found an old 351 basket case and it appears to be coming my way and is missing wood and fairly rusty .Was thinking that could be an intresting project for this .
Was mostly wondering if there may be one out there .Tks
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Post by blackbahart on Dec 9, 2014 10:15:42 GMT -5
Hi Hardrada55 You mentioned a 1907 that may have been converted to 218 bee .I just finished a 1907 in 338-223 .I have also done a 30 carbine on 1907 ,44amp on 1910 so a small bore sounds intresting.Any idea where to look for any input on the 218 bee as my google foo is kinda weak .
thanks Peter
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Post by Hardrada55 on Dec 9, 2014 19:44:55 GMT -5
Hey Peter, that was years ago. I used to get the Gun List magazine back in the mid-1990s, and I always perused the ads for Remington Model 8s and Winchester Self-Loaders. I remember seeing an ad, from who I do not remember now, they were selling a Model 07 converted to .218. I know I mentioned it pretty contemporaneously to John Henwood. W
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Post by blackbahart on Dec 11, 2014 0:41:50 GMT -5
Hi Hardrada55
thank you for your reply ,but that is how it goes sometimes no sweat .I will poke around the web some more and see if there is some fragment of info some place .I finished cutting 50 cases and turned some bullets to load up for 338-223,it is starting to irritate me with the componet shortages up here as I found the right length of bullet in the US but not worth the greif to go through importing.
Well I guess it is time to get the widow maker (1911) shotgun into operating condition
Cheers for now Peter
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Post by blackbahart on Feb 17, 2015 1:44:21 GMT -5
here is a bit of a project with a basket case 1910,that now fires 351 type cartridge .
I took a spare 1907 barrel first cut the mouth of the chamber to the 357 head size ,modified the buffer lug to the dimension of the 401 barrel.Weighed the breech blocks 401 is 43.6 ozand the 357 is 38.5 oz ,lightened the 401 breech block to 38.5 oz in the mill.
I assembled this abomination and made up some test rounds 360 Dan Wesson brass From starline with 351 180 gr Graff plated bullets.The 360 DW brass fits into the 401 mag with no alterations .I ran 2 mags through the creature with out a problem also ran a mag of federal 357 magnum again ran no problem .I didn't check for accuracy yet just function.
The result is using parts from a 1910 and 1907 I now have a 07/10 that runs cheap brass 351 rimmed loads,mag still only holds 4 .If any interest in this I can post some pics when I tear it down for refinishing as it is ugly as heck LOL
Now to get on the 1911 shotgun Cheers Peter
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